所謂地域性，究竟是什麼？作為亞洲建築師，在材料和技術以外，我們能為建築的地域性發展做出怎樣的努力？

這次我們對談新銳亞洲建築事務所HAS，他們對於泰國建築地域性的研究與實踐，中國鄉建和本土化建築的洞見，或許能給大家未來的建築之路有一些新的啟發。

HAS（Hung And Songkittipakdee）

事務所位置：曼谷與上海

接下來請跟隨ArchiDogs走進：

建道築格 X 洪人傑、Kulthida Songkittipakdee，隨大咖們一同觸碰前沿建築設計。

採訪｜Danny Hu

撰文｜金小琪，Danny Hu

編輯｜園子

本期人物

洪人傑

HAS design and research 主持建築師

中泰建築研究室 創始人

Kulthida Songkittipakdee

HAS design and research 主持建築師

泰國一級註冊建築師

H= 洪人傑

S= Songkittipakdee

01/泰國當代建築

「泰國建築發生許多轉變，我們希望讓大眾看到除歐美日主流國家外，仍有許多具社會性和地域性發展的東南亞國家」

█ 洪人傑與Kulthida Songkittipakdee，二位好，感謝參與Archidogs的專訪，近期您二位完成了泰國當代建築的展覽，請問做這個主題的初衷是什麼？

Hi Jenchieh Hung and Songkittipakdee, thank you for having an interview with Archidogs. Recently you did the Thai Contemporary Architecture Exhibition, and may I ask what was the intention of doing this exhibition?

HAS設計項目：廣州市城市規劃展覽中心 ? 泰國當代建築羣展

H：我們事務所有兩個實踐，一個是作為設計事務所HAS design and research主持建築師，另一個則是作為「中泰建築研究室」負責人；而您剛才所詢問的，正是兩個工作室平行的部分。我們在過去幾年完成許多泰國乃至東南亞建築的出版、評論與講座，然而以國內來說對泰國建築的認知仍不完善，因此我們會收到邀約，包括在廣州市城市規劃展覽中心舉辦亞洲最大的「泰國當代建築羣展」，總面積700平方米，與12家國際知名的泰國建築事務所，18位泰國建築師共同參展。

我們也在泰國經營獨立建築事務所，因此業主知道我們是泰國建築研究領域的專家，當雙方都有高度的信任時，就會推進我們共同全力完成項目。除此之外，我們還持續關注泰國當代建築的發展並不斷寫作與發刊；從1933年泰國成立暹羅建築師協會（The Association of Siamese Architects, ASA）到2019年的現今，泰國建築發生許多轉變，我們希望讓大眾看到除歐美日主流國家外，仍有許多具社會性和地域性發展的東南亞國家。

We have two practices as a studio. One is that we are principles of design office HAS design and research, also we are the founder of Chinese-Thai Research Studio. What you mentioned is exactly the paralleled part of the two practices. We accomplished many publishing, review, and lectures about architecture in Thailand and South-east Asia, which is not yet well-perceived in China. That is why we were invited to the Thai Contemporary Architecture Exhibition, in an area of 700 square meters, with 12 renowned architectural firms and 18 other architects in Thailand.

Also, we are running an independent architectural studio in Thailand, so that our clients know our expertise in the study of Thailand architecture. We have a high level of trust between each other, which was an impetus for our mutual effort on the projects. Besides, we stay tuned to the development of contemporary architecture in Thailand and constantly write and publish about it. From the establishment of The Association of Siamese Architects in 1933 to the year 2019, many changes have been made to the architecture in Thailand. And we hope to show the general public that besides the mainstream countries in Europe, America, and Japan, there are many countries in Southeast Asia that have social and regional developments.

《中泰建築研究室》相關出版物、講座與教學

《中泰建築研究室》相關泰國與東南亞建築評論出版

█ 在廣州的泰國當代建築策展──泰國性（Thainess），讓我深受感動的是入口長廊垂下白色布料的材料性，以及吊頂上懸掛的硫酸圖紙所形成的波浪形態。二位在布展時，是如何將這兩種輕盈的材料與泰國當代建築的主題進行連結？

In the Thainess section of Thai Contemporary Architecture Exhibition in Guangzhou, which moved me very much was the materiality of white drapes in the entrance hallway and the wavy form of tracing papers hanging on the ceilings. How did you connect the two lightweight materials with the theme of contemporary Thai architecture?

H：這個問題可以分為兩個部分。第一個是「Thainess」，第二個是策展和背景。從第一個部分開始解釋，無論您問任何泰國建築師什麼是泰國風格、什麼是泰國性？他們都會回答不知道。然而，當我們要在泰國以外地區做這樣的展覽，勢必大家對泰國當代建築是怎麼樣的輪廓更感興趣，這也是為什麼我們用「Thainess」作為標題。其實，我們倒不是給出一個答案，而是希望通過展覽去問這個問題──什麼是泰國性？所以我們挑選的18位泰國建築師給我們一個多樣且完整的輪廓，進而讓民眾感知到「他們自身所理解的泰國性」。

第二個部分是關於策展和背景，這與我們所創立的「中泰建築研究室」相關。一般來說泰國城市居民的生活多半依水而居，所以造就許多高腳屋類型的建築，可以加強通風，甚至懸挑的結構還能形成外廊或遮陽系統。這些研究給了我們重要的訊息，即如何用當代材料重新詮釋傳統建築型態。所以我們選用輕柔的布料漂浮在地面之上，像是傳統的高腳屋；當風吹過的時候，夠過布料的孔隙能進入到室內。這種方式和高腳屋完全一樣，既漂浮又能通風，只不過我們透過類比關係，轉換成當代材料的形態。

事實上，這個布料所形成24米的展示長廊原先不在設計範圍內，是我們跟業主要求一定要追加在設計內容中，因而產生進入主廳前的到達體驗。我們以廣州當地的布料作為媒介並在上面手寫泰文，用意在於表示「材料是當地的，內容卻是泰國的」；並藉由研究嶺南古村落與廣州城中村的空間形態，設計出具有「廊、庭、院」的展覽空間。意圖傳達給觀展者──即便建築逐漸走向品牌化，但建築幾百年來的本質卻不曾改變；希望透過一個預算極精簡的設計，重新思考「向內」看的重要性。展覽物是一個訊息，但空間自身才是最動人的文化本質。

We can answer the question in two parts. The first one is 「Thainess」, and the second being the curating and background. For the first part, if you ask any Thai architect what is 「Thainess」 at any time, they won』t know the answer. However, when we are planning an exhibition like this outside Thailand, people will be more interested in the outline of contemporary architecture in Thailand, and that』s why we used 「Thainess」 as a theme. Instead of giving people an answer, we hope to discuss the question through the exhibition what is 「Thainess」? The 18 Thai architects we invited gave us a various yet complete framework, through which the general public could sense 「the Thainess they understand」.

The second part is the curating and background, which is related to our Chinese-Thai Research Studio. Citizens would usually live by the water, and the result was many stilt houses, which can enhance ventilation. Also, the cantilevered structure can act as a side corridor or sun-shade system. These researches gave us important information about how to translate traditional architectural form with contemporary materiality. The fabric in the exhibition is floating and ventilated as the stilt houses. When the wind goes by, it can come inside with the voids of the fabric. It』s exactly like the stilt houses, which is floating and ventilated, just transformed it into forms made by contemporary materials through analogy.

In fact, the 24-meter exhibition hallway of fabric was originally not in our design realm. We insisted on adding it to our design to clients so that we can create an arrival experience before people get into the main exhibition hall. We used local fabric in Guangzhou and handwrote them with Thai, to show that 「While materials are local, the content belongs to Thailand」. Also, we studied the spatial form of old villages in the Lingnan area and urban villages in Guangzhou and designed exhibition space that has 「corridors, court, and yards」. We were trying to show the visitors that, although the architecture has been emphasized in branding, the core of architecture hasnt changed through a few hundred years. We hope to use a design with a limited budget to rethink the importance of thinking locally. The exhibits are messages, while space itself is the most touching culture essence.

HAS設計項目：廣州市城市規劃展覽中心 ? 泰國當代建築羣展

S：由於展覽的預算比較有限，所以我們通過硫酸紙起伏的形式，將每個建築師之間的作品做一個軟性的區隔。這樣的形式並非僅是造型，更有視覺功能上的存在。另外，主展廳面積大約500平方米，如果僅貼展覽內容，會導致閱覽體驗不好，所以我們用現況天花並弔掛上硫酸圖紙，進而讓展覽空間達到兩倍視覺面積之效果。

Because of the limited budget, we used the wavy form of tracing paper as a soft partition between the work of different architects. Besides the form, these papers helped with visual functions. The main exhibition hall is about 500 m2, so the viewing experience would not be the best if we just show the exhibition contents. That』s why we are hanging the tracing papers to the existing ceilings so that the exhibition area would be visually twice as actual.

HAS設計項目：廣州市城市規劃展覽中心 ? 泰國當代建築羣展

█ 二位也有從事建築評論類的出版和講座，可否與我們分享這部份的想法？

You also have lectures and publishing of architectural critiques, could you share some idea in this aspect with us?

H：這個方面與建築實踐是平行的，我們透過──寫作、教學與講座發現建築以外的深層意義。建築終究離不開人，我們希望所做的一切都能與社會發生關係，並找到屬於這個時代的另一種聲音。有趣的是，當我們從事泰國策展和寫作時，作為總策劃人的我們需要接觸到不同的建築師，因此我們也會尋找與我們價值觀接近，但實踐方式極為不同的建築師。

This is a paralleled aspect of our architectural practice. We find meanings beyond architecture through writing, teaching, and lecturing. Architecture can』t be detached with people, so we hope that everything we do could have an interaction with society and that we could find another voice that belongs to our time. Its interesting that when we are writing and curating about Thai architecture, we need to get in touch with different architects as chief curators. So we are able to find architects that share values with us, yet practice in totally different ways.

02/HAS design and research

「我們總是從研究來理解設計的潛在可能，設計就像冰山露出水面的一小部分，我們希望透過研究看到水面下支撐主體社會環境的原因」

█ Songkittipakdee，您過去13年分別倫佐·皮亞諾建築工作室（Renzo Piano Building Workshop）、巴黎Architecture-Studio、香港嚴迅奇建築師事務所（Rocco Design Architects）、NBBJ任職，現在則負責獨立事務所並在西交利物浦大學（Xian Jiaotong-Liverpool University）教授建築。洪先生，您則過去8年在隈研吾建築都市設計事務所、姚仁喜·大元建築工場；我很感興趣的是，二位是如何把大型事務所的實踐經驗帶進學術體系中？

Songkittipakdee, you have worked for Renzo Piano Building Workshop, Architecture-Studio in Paris, Rocco Design Architects, and NBBJ for the past 13 years. And now you are in charge of an independent architectural studio and teaching at Xian Jiaotong-Liverpool University. And Hung, you have been working for Kengo Kuma and Associates, Kris Yao Artech. I am very interested in that, how did you bring the experience in the large architectural firms to the academic system?

Kulthida Songkittipakdee與Renzo Piano於巴黎倫佐·皮亞諾建築工作室

S：事實上不分大小，而是無論在哪種項目中，執行過程中總會有類比的核心價值。比如在大型商業開發項目中，建築師需要透過項目的差異性，進而思考使用者的多樣化感受；當在小型的建築空間中，我們依舊要思考參與者的到達體驗，以及特殊化的場域感受。這表示著不管項目大小，唯有理解不同環境的核心價值後，才能跳出制式化準則並發展出多樣的可能性。

另外一個經驗是，過去我在法國倫佐·皮亞諾工作時，負責紐約哥倫比亞大學藝術和科學中心（Jerome L. Greene Science Center for Mind Brain Behavior）、洛杉磯藝術博物館（Los Angeles County Museum of Art Expansion II），參與的同事都有負責過大型商業開發項目的經驗， 但他們卻能跳出固化的思考並提出有效的設計方案。這也表示當公司的管理模式能發展創作氛圍時，事務所的走向就會更加多元。

回到我們的事務所HAS design and research。我們總是從研究來理解設計的潛在可能，設計就像冰山露出水面的一小部分，我們希望透過研究看到水面下支撐主體社會環境的原因。

S：In fact, we found the value that can be analogized in the process of all kinds of projects and in both large and small firms. For example, in the large commercial development projects, architects need to think about the diverse feelings of users through the difference of projects. While in small architectural space, we need to think about the arrival experience and specialized feelings about the space. Which means no matter for a large project or a small one, we can only go beyond the routine and develop various possibilities when after we start to understand the core value of different site environment.

Another experience would be, when I was working for Renzo Piano in France, I was in charge of the Jerome L. Greene Science Center for MindBrain Behavior for Columbia University, as well as the Los Angeles County Museum of Art Expansion II. My colleagues who worked on these projects having different backgrounds, some of them worked in the large mixed-use project before. However, when we worked together as a team, we produced a variety of design that is very suitable for our projects and contexts. So, the firm environment is also a key to drive and motivate people to the efficiency working system.

And if we go back to talk about our studio HAS design and research, we always understand the potential of design from our research. Design is like the small part of the iceberg revealed out of the water, yet by doing researches, we hope to see the main social environmental reason underneath the water.

隈研吾與洪人傑於陽澄湖旅遊集散中心

H：我們處於一個國家發展速度非常快的環境，多數項目定位就是商業化發展；即便項目在我們眼中是學術性或研究性的，但在業主眼中依舊是商業性的。但事實上我並不覺得商業項目不好，相反地它很好。但商業項目是在考驗建築師面對自己的決心、磨練建築師尋找自我的CORE；當建築師有自己的CORE，不管任何項目都可以找到核心價值，即便是商業項目也是。

另一個話題就是如何找到CORE？我認為當下建築師很多誘惑，但其實只要做自己即可，並且不斷地強化自我個性；我的父親是貨車司機，自幼家庭條件相對簡易，卻培養我長大知足的個性。因此我認為所謂的富有是透過情感來傳達對建築的感動，而所有項目的業主都很信任我，因為我們將所有時間與精力都放在設計上，也就不會產生其他無謂的困擾。

We are in an environment where the country is developing rapidly, and most of the projects are supposed to be commercial development. Even if we see them as academic or research-oriented, they are still commercial in the eyes of our clients. I am not saying that commercial projects are not good, in fact, I think they are great. It』s just commercial projects are testing the will of the architects to face themselves, and practicing them to find the core for themselves. And when architects have the core for themselves, they can find value in any projects, including commercial ones.

So how do we find the core for ourselves? In my opinion, architects nowadays are facing many temptations, but it should be sufficient just by being yourself, and continuously strengthen your personalities. My father is a truck driver, we lived in relatively simple conditions as a family, but it formed my personality of always feeling abundant when I grow up. I think the word abundant means to express the touching feeling to others. When all our clients trusted us, we are able to put all our energies to design, and we are thus free from other meaningless worries.

█ 二位都在大學兼任建築設計教授，並且有自己的事務所。如何在教學和實踐上取的平衡？如何分配兩者的時間？

You are both architecture professors in universities, and you have your own design firm. How do you find a balance between teaching and practicing? And how do you allocate your time for both jobs?

H：對我們來說，更重要的是如何「選擇」適合的教學和實踐，因為我們希望每次帶來的內容都是新的，而不是沿用重複的主題或實踐不斷地去遊說業主或學生。因此，每個任務對我們來說都是一個挑戰，比如一個為期三天的講座或工作營，我們的準備時間往往會達到兩個禮拜或一個月；但另外一方面，我們希望通過比較長時間的研究和準備，在過程中找到事務所的核心價值觀，以及找到不同的設計方法。這樣通過對任務的篩選，我們可以讓事務所的思考和脈絡是具備延續性的。

The important thing for us is how to select suitable teaching subjects and practices because we hope to bring new content every time, rather than using repetitive themes or practices to convince our clients or inform our students. Thus, every job is a challenge for us. For example, for a three-day workshop or lecture, the preparation time for us would usually be two weeks to a month. On the other hand, through a long time of research and preparation, we hope to find core values and different design methods for our studio. And by selecting from the jobs we have, we are able to make our thinking and practice continuable.

S：不管是講座或教學，我們會先思考能否結合我們的實踐；如果較困難，我們更希望把時間投入在研究或設計上，這樣才對得起自己也對得起聘請我們的單位。

Either for lectures or teaching, we will first think about whether they can be integrated with our own practice. If it』s relatively hard to do that, we will then focus our efforts on research and design, as it will be more responsible for both our clients and ourselves.

03/ 建築的「新」自然性：

從「錯建築」到「錯覺情境」

「這些違建雨棚、大排檔、路邊攤棚戶、移動式推車…等構成獨特的人為風景，然而這些臨時建築羣的存在真實揭露人們作為自然的一部分，如何在鋼筋水泥的城市中重新找到另一種「新」自然性「

█ 二位在收到一個項目委託的時候，是如何進行相互配合？如何溝通以及相互尊重對方的想法，並如何分工合作？

When you get a new project from clients, how do you work collaboratively? How do you communicate to and respect each other, and how do you divide the work?

H：如何找到一種隱性的價值觀來引導我們的設計過程，比任何溝通都更重要；前期我們也會各自提出不同的方案，但依舊需要靠時間來完善。我們希望通過一些特定項目，來尋找到不同的文化價值──如違建雨棚、大排檔、路邊攤棚戶、移動式推車…等構成亞洲城市獨特的人為風景，然而這些臨時建築羣的存在真實揭露人們作為自然的一部分，如何在鋼筋水泥的城市中重新找到另一種「新」自然性，我們將這樣的研究與設計稱作為：錯建築 / 錯覺情境（ILLUSION ARCHITECTURE / SENSE OF DISTORTION）。

It』s more important for us to find a latent value system to guide our design process than any kind of communication. We will have our own proposal for projects, and perfect them as time goes. We hope to find different cultural values by certain projects such as unapproved canopies, food stalls, street stands and shacks, mobile carts, etc., to build a unique cultural landscape for Asian cities. The existence of these temporary building groups reveals that humans, as a part of nature, how do they find another 「new」 naturality in the midst of cities full of steel and concrete. And we call researches and design like this as ILLUSION ARCHITECTURE / SENSE OF DISTORTION.

HAS研究項目：臺南 ? 廟街防火巷

HAS設計項目：曼谷 ? Sa Sia Tua佛寺

█ 何謂「錯建築」定義？它又是如何體現在您二位的設計方法中的？

How do you defineIllusion Architecture, and how do you operate in design with such ideas?

H：如果我們將教育背景和實踐經歷拿掉後，建築師還剩下什麼實踐工具？「錯建築」是一個持續性的研究論述，目的在尋找亞洲城市中一種非自主、且沒有建築師介入的空間。多數亞洲城市作為世界大戰後被殖民的地區,其建築元素與風格形式完全承接西方現代主義；相反地這種「自發性違建」卻勾勒出特有的地域生態與社會文化，這些構築由非專業人員（建築師）的介入，卻反應出更靈活、有效率的解決策略。

歐洲與亞洲不同，他們理解建築和城市的方式在於對自身文化的認同；但我們理解建築和城市的方式在於哪裡有超高層、哪裡有國際建築師來設計項目。除此之外，我們對自身城市的理解是非常薄落，也造就我們的思想需要向外看，一種引進西方思維「嫁接」於東方技術的設計邏輯。所以，我們在找尋來自本土的設計方法，如何找到本土文化的「新」認同，或著說如何以傳統演繹對未來的想像？是我們做任何判斷最核心的標準。

HAS事務所的研究包括火車鐵道市場、高架道路下的棚戶、迂迴環繞的死巷子…等。這種景象僅存在於亞洲城市，特別是東南亞地區，是一種極具本土價值的建築型態。它的美不在於外表，而是來自於內在；當地居民沒接受過任何教育，但他們卻比建築師更懂得如何尊重環境。我們希望通過對亞洲城市自主性的發展，對這樣自然與「人造自然」的現象進行歸納研究，形成僅屬於「我們」的設計方法；而這種沒有建築師介入的「自發性違建」，可以作為引導大眾自力實踐的工具，具備普世與再利用的價值性。

What practicing tools do architects still have, if not considering the educational background and practicing experience? 「Illusion Architecture」 is a continuous research statement aimed at finding non-autonomous space in Asia cities which have not yet been intervened by architects. Most Asian cities have districts that were colonized after the World Wars. Architectural elements and forms of those districts are complete interpretations of western modernism. By contrast, the 「spontaneous unapproved construction」 we discussed reflects unique regional ecology and culture. These constructions are built by non-professionals (non-architects), yet are more flexible and efficient solutions.

What is different between Europe and Asia is that Europeans』 understanding of architecture and the systems from their cultural identity, while we are recognizing them more from the number of high-rises and international designers. Besides, we have a frail understanding of our own cities, which formed the design logic that we have to think in western ways and graft eastern technologies with western thinking. Sowe is finding a design method that stems from our own cities. How to find a new recognition of local culture, in other words, how to interpret the imagination of the future with our traditions? Those are the core standards of any of our decisions.

The research HAS is doing includes railway markets, shed dwellers under highways, tortuous alleys with dead ends, etc. These are existing only in Asian cities, especially Southeast Asia, and are very valuable local architectural patterns. They have beauty inside rather than outside: local people never received any education can however understand how to respect the environment more than architects. We hope to sort and study nature and 「man-made nature」, so as to develop our own design method. The 「spontaneous unapproved construction」 without intervenes from architects can also be tools of guiding their own practice of the general public, and thus have universal values that can be reused.

HAS研究項目：曼谷 ? 移動窗簾運船

HAS設計項目：上海衡復微空間 ? 泰國建築展

█ 您說的沒錯。西方的構築更講究秩序感，結合法律規範構建起城市體系；而採用這套體系的社會，對人們真正需求的建築反而有所忽視。我認為您的「錯建築」理論，也正是對這個現象的一個反諷。

Exactly. Western constructions emphasize in the order, and the urban system was constructed in a combination of laws and regulations. This system of society, however, could be quite neglected to the architecture that people want. I think your theory of 「Illusion Architecture」 can also be an irony to this.

H：錯建築的「錯」字是表達遊走在社會法律邊緣，一種體制標準下，不完全正確的觀念；另一方面，因為它們在社會法律或建築規範邊緣，不是透過註冊建築師來搭建，因此產生的類型與細節都不同，進而讓空間產生某種模糊感。這種如自然的隨機的不規則感，卻透過人工自主搭建的模式，正是自然與「錯自然」的對比。我們希望通過研究，讓設計衍生出「失秩」的可能性。

「Illusion Architecture」, the Chinese character for this also means 「informal」. It represents some senses that are not entirely right under the social system. On the other hand, they were built verging on the laws and architectural regulations, and without the involvement of registered architects. So they have different typologies and details than other architecture, which brings certain blurred feeling to space. This random irregularity of nature was however represented in the ways of man-made constructions, which resembles the contrast between nature and illusionary nature. We hope to derive our design with a possibility of 「disorder」, through our design.

HAS研究項目：廣州 ? 嶺南古村落

HAS設計項目：曼谷 ?《art4d》移動圖書館

S：錯建築雖然字面上是「錯」，但本地人不覺得他們的違建有任何問題。因此，對我們來說它是錯建築，更可以說是「錯覺」情境。

Although 「Illusion Architecture」 literally means 「Wrong Architecture」, but the locals don』t think that would be a problem. So instead of calling it 「Wrong」 architecture, it』s more like 「Illusionary」 scenarios to us.

04/最值得研究的「事務所」

「如何找到本土文化的「新」認同，或者說如何以傳統演繹對未來的想像？是我們做任何判斷最核心的標準」

█ 您二位是如何從不同的身分背景看待中國當代建築？是否既能滿足發展需求，又能帶有中華文明內在的精神？是否有普世的設計方法應用於當下的建築環境？

How do you understand contemporary Chinese architecture through your different identity background? Is it possible to be suitable for economic development, yet also carries the spirit of Chinese civilization? Is there a universal design method for architectural environments nowadays?

H：世界藉由互聯網逐漸形成扁平化的發展，不同國籍的建築師對於設計的理解也逐漸走向同質化。因此，當代建築差異化明顯減小時，我們對於建築的訴求又是什麼？這不僅是中國現象，更是世界現象，只不過我們身處的城市快速發展，物理效應也更顯著。

我不認為要改進什麼，身處於這樣的時代機緣，反而給了建築師很多的機會與養分。無論此現象產生的優劣效應，至少當下是走向有趣的結果。但如果這種模式出現一個成功案例，那麼今後就會成為大眾效仿的模式；在我看來，二十年前中國建築界是多樣的，有張永和、劉家琨、王澍…而現在大家很清楚所謂的明星建築師要做什麼樣的建築，便集中很大的心力去研究那樣的東西，形成現在建築所展現的方式，技術和文化之間的差異要素都變得非常小。

With the internet, the world has flattened development, and the understanding of design by architects of different nationalities have been converging. And when the difference between architecture eliminated, what would be our pursuit of architecture? It』s more than a phenomenon in China, actually, it』s a phenomenon worldwide. It』s just our cities develop rapidly, which magnifies the effects.

Yet I don』t think we need to change anything. Being in a century like this would, in turn, give opportunities and nourishments to architects. Whether it』s good or bad in the result, it』s leading to an interesting end at least for now. But when one case becomes successful, it will then be followed by others. In my opinion, there was a diversity in Chinese architects 20 years ago, such as YungHo Chang, JiaKun Liu, Shu Wang, etc. While today architects know what they should do to be so-called star architects, and have been studying things like that with massive efforts. So we are having much less difference in the way architecture is presented, also in culture and technology today.

S：從建築實踐的角色來看，二十年前我們很少看到中國女性建築師的作品報導，但現今越來越多的書籍、專刊報導了女性建築師的實踐。從學生表達能力而言，近年來我在國內建築學系所指導的學生都表現出很驚人的繪圖技術、豐富的圖學表達，但在思考上卻倒退或不知如何表達。或許因為電腦或互連網的便利，讓大家更習慣用眼球思索，而失去自我判斷的能力。

Also for the role of architectural practice, we are seeing more and more reports in books and magazines about practices of female architects now, while it was not so common twenty years ago. And for presenting skills of students, architecture students I have taught in recent years were astonishingly good in their representation skills, yet went backward in their thinking or simply didn』t know how to present. That』s probably because the convenience of the internet makes people used to perceive with their eyes, rather than make a judgment by themselves.

█ 地域性建築成為近年設計議題，很多設計師透過當地文化、材料和工藝進行詮釋並融入設計。這樣的設計方法逐漸成為一種模式化思維，似乎說到在地性，就必須使用當地材料與工藝。如何避免將這種設計方法變成普遍性的設計公式？

Regional architecture have has been a topic of design recently. Many designers translated their local culture, materiality, and techniques into the design. It seems to be a pattern of the design method, speaking of localization, we have to use local material and techniques. So how to avoid this design method to be a general design formula?

H：HAS有個研究項目在蘇州陽澄湖，陽澄湖那邊風景宜人並以喫大閘蟹聞名。有趣的是，當地捕蟹人家會將住家與漁船結合為一，形成特有的船屋；而這樣的船屋多半是斜屋頂，因為這是他們認為家最基本的造型。當他們要外出抓魚抓蟹時，他們懂得用當地的木柱或竹竿，並透過一種深灰色塗料附著在木柱或漁網上，讓這些人工物能自然地融入陽澄湖水當中並快速抓到魚蟹。

這個研究揭露了當地人即便沒受過建築教育，但他們明白如何去建造一個「家」；另外一件事是，他們比建築從業者更懂得尊重自然，瞭解哪種顏色與材料對原生物種的影響最小。這是城市人在執行鄉建項目所缺乏的敏銳性。

For example, HAS had a research project in Yangcheng Lake in Suzhou, where there are beautiful sceneries and is famous for its hairy crabs. One interesting thing is that local crab catchers will combine their house and boat as one, which is the unique boathouse. Those houses will most likely have sloped roofs because local people think it』s the basic form of homes. And when they are out to catch fish and crabs, they will use wood pillars or bamboos. By attaching some dark paintings on those tools, this man-made tools can naturally merge into the lake water and catch things very fast.

The research shows that locals know how to build a 「home」 without even be educated. Also, they know about respecting nature better than architects, and they know which color and material will damage the least to original species. That』s the acumen which city dwellers need when doing rural projects.

HAS研究項目：蘇州 ? 陽澄湖船屋

HAS設計項目：臺北 ? 新北市立美術館

█ 過去有很多報導像是錢幣形狀的建築，龍形狀的建築，能促使建築與財富或好運相聯。二位認為這個崇尚符號性建築的思維是源自於宗教信仰還是語言文化？

We have seen many reports about a coin or dragon-shaped buildings, which means fortune or good luck. Do you think this attachment to symbolized architecture stems from religious belief or language and culture?

H：這種象徵性元素之所以變成建築的語彙，多半夾雜經濟開發和政治背景；這樣的建築在美學上的訴求較低，但它們卻真實表達那個時代的訴求。這些開發商用非常具象的方式呈現，就像回到二千多年前的非洲土著，透過陶像人偶清楚表達自己的慾望與需求，而陶像人偶對於土著而言作為藝術形式和宗教文化，但建築對於開發商而言卻成了宣示能力的表態手段。

I think these symbols exist in architectural language mostly because of the background of politics or economic development. Beingless appealing aesthetically, they can, however, represent the appeals for the time they were built. The developers showed in a very specific way their desires, just like the native Africans did two thousand years ago with pottery figures. The pottery figure means art and religion, while these buildings became a declaration of the developers』 capabilities.

S：對於泰國建築師，我們從未以建築型態表達對佛學的推崇，因為對佛學的崇拜是潛移默化在建築師體內。在泰國發展體制中，我們能接受外來文化並全數融合於一；這有如泰國的食物和建築，總會在細小的元素中，看到豐富的型態與層次。

For Thai architects, we never represented our praise of Buddhism with architectural forms, because it has been built in every architect by deeply instinct. In the development of Thailand, we received varieties of cultures and merge them into one. It was represented very well in the food and architecture of Thailand, you will always find the richness of form and layers even in very detailed elements.

HAS研究項目：上海 ? 石庫門裡弄

HAS設計項目：泰國碧差汶府 ? 山合院別墅

採訪｜Danny Hu

撰文｜金小琪，Danny Hu

編輯｜園子

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